FORUM NOTES - MAY 30th 2010

TOPICS :- Role Play - FW? & Slave Wine

TOPIC:- ROLE PLAY – FW? & Slave Wine


 Loki   19:03:25 pm CDT

~strides in, finds My spot on the dais, lowering My bulk~

greetings girls....


  Loki   19:07:28 pm CDT

Im not sure if we are going to have forum tonight, Ill wait till half past and see if we have enough people.


  Loki   19:08:46 pm CDT

greetings snowrose, can you scribe if we have forum?

greetings natira~chuckles~ staying out of trouble I hope


natira{GS}  19:10:09 pm CDT

greetings snowrose ~smiles~

greetings kadife

~blows candy flavored kisses to each~ she hopes you both are well


natira{GS}  19:16:28 pm CDT

yes Master she will, is it the same as before?


  Loki   19:21:42 pm CDT

Tal and greetings Lady Lita~chuckling at her disheavelness~

Your not late, Im contemplating cancelling forum in not enough people show up. I think people are in r/t due to the holidays.


 Lady Lita  19:22:50 pm CDT

Could be, Captain. I hope we don't have to cancel though. I was looking forward to Forum, as there hasn't been much rp this week while I was around. Maybe I scare 'em off! *snicker*


Lady Lita 19:23:24 pm CDT

Is there a particular minimum number required for Forum?


  Loki   19:24:16 pm CDT

no I doubt that Lady Lita~chuckle~

r/p has been one of the things we've been trying to push around here. Your efforts are appreciated. R/t tends to get the best of our members here.


  Loki   19:25:17 pm CDT

nay no minimum, but it helps to have more than three, and I believe we have enough to carry on a decent discussion/conversation


Lady Lita 19:25:41 pm CDT

Understood, Captain. Problem is, to have good rp, a number of folks are needed. The other issue is I'm not sure how it would be taken here for a Free Woman to start off some rp, even if I had an idea.


  Loki   19:27:44 pm CDT

Lady Lita, You may start any r/p. There are no rules. And aye, it does help when more people are involved, but feel free to monolog as much as You want. ready? I think we'll start forum......Everyone knows the rules........

perhaps the first topic is r/p? Any other topics? whisper or just post them, either way.



Lady Lita  19:27:59 pm CDT

Perhaps that might be a good topic here. Just exactly what is expected and/or allowed a Free Woman here. I am sure I'd not be permitted to get away with some of the things Free Women in the books got away with. For example I don't think You would hold still for Me slapping You and demanding money to take the slaves and FWs here to a Tavern or lunch! *giggle*


kadife{GS}  19:28:30 pm CDT

this slave would like to ask... is it ok to rp any place on the site?


  Loki   19:29:34 pm CDT


well, as for Myself, Id say nay, You wouldnt get away with that, so fair warning now


  Loki   19:30:40 pm CDT

aye kadife, good question. and the answer is yes, any place is fine to r/p. the entire site is for r/p. It just depends on what room your in.

make sense?


 Lady Lita  19:30:54 pm CDT

*pretty pout beneth the veil.* Awww darn! And here I was looking forward to something like that! *giggle* Ah well, elizabeth did get away with things no one else could. *sigh*


  Loki   19:31:46 pm CDT

~chuckle~ Like I said Lady Lita, I can only speak for My reaction, no other Free Males.....You'll just have to see for Yourself


  Loki   19:32:55 pm CDT

and feel free to r/p anything, as long as it realistic to the sense of the books.


  Loki   19:34:27 pm CDT

and r/p doesn’t HAVE to be posted on the boards, it can if you wish others to follow along, and or join in when a opportunity arises


  Loki   19:35:42 pm CDT

anything to add natira? kadife? snowrose?~chuckle~

speak up girls



 kadife{GS} 19:36:20 pm CDT

can the Master say if he thinks a R/P could ever cross a line... lets say in the tavern?


Lady Lita 19:36:26 pm CDT

Just that sometimes I like to bring in things that were done in the books, that would make for good role-play, but that folks seem for one reason or another not to have tried to do on-line. Like the slave parade for example.


 kadife{GS} 19:37:34 pm CDT

or the love wars Mistress


natira{GS} 19:38:11 pm CDT

umm nothing at this time Master ~smiles sweetly batting pale lashes~


Lady Lita 19:38:58 pm CDT

Well lots of places do the Love Wars. And yes, they are exciting. However, Since we don't seem to have an of the Wagon Peoples in Port Kar, they really would be out of place, I'd think.


 kadife{GS} 19:40:23 pm CDT

well this slave was just giving an example of culture... not really suggesting a love war


Loki 19:40:31 pm CDT

kadife, can you elaborate on cross the line? as long as its legitimate r/p I don’t see how it can....


natira{GS} 19:41:34 pm CDT

girl has seen r/p such as auctions and the selling of slaves, as well has having a giant feast in a dining hall with many Free present and many slaves serving, dancing and entertaining ~nods~


 kadife{GS} 19:41:52 pm CDT

this girl can not Master.


Loki 19:42:19 pm CDT

aye natira, the only limit is a persons imagination


 Loki 19:43:25 pm CDT

ah, no problem kadife, Id say as long as its legitmate r/p, there is no line to cross....

perhaps others have a opinion they would like to share



Lady Lita 19:44:34 pm CDT

understood, kadife. Might be interesting to see something done here with the Caste of Thieves, but you'd have to find folks willing to try that. *grins*


  Loki   19:45:18 pm CDT

snowrose.....I dont think anyone can be forced to participate in r/p if they dont wish too



   Dak   19:45:47 pm CDT

yeah, there is always rti, *smiles*


  {Ulrich's}shadow GS~fg   19:46:47 pm CDT

is this not RP every time we log in? *confused*

shadow thinks a chore would be RP as would a serve and if "something was going on in the room you are in' you are already a part of it just being there?


 Lady Lita 19:46:51 pm CDT

I'm not quite sure I follow, snowrose. If you were in, say the Tavern, doing a chore, could you give Me an example of what type of rp that might occur that you would not want to be a part of? Maybe I could suggest something that might help you gracefully bow out.


snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure 19:47:03 pm CDT

she didn't get drawn in Master, but she thinks roleplay within roleplay belongs in PK....just her opinion


kadife{GS} 19:47:10 pm CDT

once when this slave did not want to participate in a role play she just crawled under a table


Loki 19:47:24 pm CDT

snowrose, Im curious, you said real chore, what does that mean exactly?

a chore in here is also a form of r/p


Loki 19:48:08 pm CDT

aye shadow, the entire site, all rooms are r/p, maybe except this one, the forum room


Lady Lita 19:48:19 pm CDT

yes, kadife, that would work. crawl under a table and sneak out the other end and crawl off to the kennels or some such.


kadife{GS} 19:48:39 pm CDT

well snow rose is doing a real chore now this slave thinks as she is scribing


Loki 19:49:41 pm CDT

Me sitting in the tavern being served ale is r/p, a girl cleaning cooking utensils is a r.p too, perhaps there's some confusion here amongst us all?


snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure 19:50:08 pm CDT

guess would rather just let it go Mistress...she just finished her chore and left


 Loki   19:50:43 pm CDT

good point kadife, scribe in forum could be considered r/t I suppose


Lady Lita 19:51:51 pm CDT

well that would work too, I suppose. Or if you were scribing something I don't know why you couldn't say something like, "sits in the corner with her scroll and writing stick, draws up her feet and scribbles furiously, trying to keep up with what is going on".


  Loki   19:53:04 pm CDT

thats true as well Lady Lita


   {Ulrich's}shadow GS~fg   19:54:15 pm CDT

shadow agrees with You Master, think maybe the RP that is going on at Port Kar is the confusion? as it is slightly different than GS is use to? But when we log in and step in GS, we are entering RP, shadow believes.. even in the forum, if her Master chooses to order shadow to do something she sure as hell isn't going to say "but my Master this is the forum room!" haha


  Loki   19:56:55 pm CDT

aye shadow, I believe you are correct, the port kar room is causing some confusion. The port kar room was made to allow more r/p beyond that of just the tavern, marketplace, bathouse, training yard extra, it was meant to allow more thought and imagination. Not to only r/p in port kar.

chuckling, aye, of course you wouldnt, but some people like to use this room as a chitchat room, which is allowed, but I personally dont agree with


Lady Lita 19:58:58 pm CDT

WEll, I very much enjoyed the role--play that happened in Port Kar with Captain Xertog and Belsaaurius and the girls that were taken. Made for some excitement.


  Loki   20:00:08 pm CDT

Aye Lady Lita, as it should ~nods and grins~

feel free to use the other rooms as well, well except the bathhouse, You go in as a FW, and maybe not as one when leaving~chuckle~


natira{GS}  20:00:50 pm CDT



  Loki   20:03:14 pm CDT

is this topic dead now? we all on the same page?

any other topics? whisper them to Me,, or post it, either way...


Lady Lita 20:03:37 pm CDT

I shall have to research the books and see if t hey had special times or days for Free Women there! After all, I may look like a tarsk under these veils. (Note I said MAY) But I sure don't want to SMELL like one!


  Loki   20:05:34 pm CDT

~chuckling~ I dont think the books will help You concerning a loop hole in the bathouse rules Lady Lita


  {Ulrich's}shadow GS~fg   20:05:56 pm CDT

~laughing softly at Mistress Lita~


natira{GS}  20:06:21 pm CDT

~snickers and coughs covering her mouth looking around for whoever made the noise trying to make it look like she didn't know~


Lady Lita  20:07:00 pm CDT

Perhaps not, Captain. However, I find that whenever I do a book search, I always learn SOMETHING, even if t isn't what I was looking for.


natira{GS} 20:07:04 pm CDT

she believes there was special bath houses for Free Women but she can't remember


  Loki   20:07:25 pm CDT

Aye Lady Lita, well said ~firm nod~


Lady Lita  20:08:57 pm CDT

that could be,naatira. I thought there was something for Free Women, but after 5 or 7 years since I last read the books, and at My age, memory doesn't always serve.


  Loki   20:09:03 pm CDT

any other topics?


  Loki   20:09:55 pm CDT

Lady Lita, thats what private holdings are for~chuckle~


Lady Lita 20:10:34 pm CDT

True, Captain


Lady Lita 20:11:40 pm CDT

I do have to wonder if Physicians on Gor are as rich, comparatively, as Physicians on earth! Being as I never heard of medical insurance on Gor.


  Dak   20:12:52 pm CDT

I don't remember ever reading of a lady Physician in the books, *smiles*


Lady Lita  20:13:28 pm CDT

And I wasn;t suggesting that as a topic, it jsut occurred to Me to wonder whether a Physician would have private holdings. I believe Flaminious worked for the House of Cernus and lived there.


  Loki   20:13:33 pm CDT

~chuckling~ that I do not know Lady Lita, I suppose it would fall on the caste ranking


  snowrose{JTr}'s pleasure   20:13:49 pm CDT

Goreans seem to be extraordinarily hale and hearty Mistress...probably just pay for having their wounds sewn up.


  Loki   20:14:35 pm CDT

anything else? topics? concerns? observations?~chuckle~


  Dak   20:14:40 pm CDT

that's becuz of the stabilization serum


Lady Lita 20:14:45 pm CDT

Dak, I can give You a number of quotes. In fact, there was a rule that a female of the Green Caste had to bear two children, and wear bracelets so indicating *pulling up My sleeve and showing Mine* before She was allowed to practice fully.


Lady Lita 20:16:24 pm CDT

True, snowrose. But the way the Gorean Men pulled out swords at every opportunity, and considered every stranger an enemy, I have an idea most Physicians were kept pretty busy just stitching Them up! *chuckle*


  Dak   20:17:00 pm CDT

I would love to see that, I don't remember reading it, and I'm half way the the books, the second time


 Lady Lita  20:18:00 pm CDT

True, snowrose. But the way the Gorean Men pulled out swords at every opportunity, and considered every stranger an enemy, I have an idea most Physicians were kept pretty busy just stitching Them up! *chuckle*


  Dak   20:18:13 pm CDT

some patched themselves up or had a slave do it


 Lady Lita  20:18:33 pm CDT

And there were diseases. Pox and Dar-Kosis for two.


  Loki   20:19:19 pm CDT

hmm I wonder if the girls have had their slave wine lately~chuckle~


 natira{GS}  20:20:01 pm CDT

~tries to hide the revulsion on her face at the mention of that extremely nasty brew


   {Ulrich's}shadow GS~fg   20:20:05 pm CDT

indeed they have Master Loki, including aurora ~smiles~ was just a few weeks back


  aurora{Ulrich}~t   20:21:16 pm CDT

The woman of the Physicians, at the age of fifteen, in many cities, wears two bracelets on her left wrist. When she has one child one bracelet is removed; when she has a second child the second bracelet is removed. She may then, if she desires, enter into the full practice of her craft.

Fighting Slave

craft meaning physician


 natira{GS}  20:21:41 pm CDT

~grins at a thought~


  Loki   20:21:47 pm CDT

oh they did shadow? Hmm I must have missed it, was it documented? I just remember how Deirde did it a long time ago.

Is there any left? fidget isnt gonna like the idea of drinking the stuff lol


   Dak   20:22:11 pm CDT

is that in the old books, orthe new ones ?


Lady Lita  20:22:21 pm CDT

I will do a quote search and find those quotes for You, Dak. Alas, between two years of remodelling my house r/t and numerous computer crashes, I had lost my books and quote files, both r/t and on my computer. Fortunately, the Book Fairly has visited me, so I can at least do the research.


 natira{GS}  20:23:00 pm CDT

girl feels for fidget ~nods nods nods~


   Dak   20:23:31 pm CDT

wasa slave wine given at the slave meetings?


Lady Lita 20:23:49 pm CDT

I could, if You like, even pull all the information I can find on the Green Caste, and post it on the boards.


   {Ulrich's}shadow GS~fg   20:23:59 pm CDT

was during a slave class Master and more than a few weeks back, a few plus a few more ~smiles~ Not sure about documentation other than slave notes? Was the Sr Captain that gave it to the girls because there was no Slave Master at the time. Think shadow recalls Master Xertog saying something about a large supply.. ?


Lady Lita  20:24:14 pm CDT

Oh that was in the old books, Dak


  aurora{Ulrich}~t   20:24:18 pm CDT

not sure Master Dak...girl took it from one of the sites she had bookmarked

not sure it matters?


  galah{RA}   20:24:28 pm CDT

slave wine use to be given out monthly around here, but in the books, wasn't it like yearly, or even longer?


Lady Lita  20:25:16 pm CDT

that is correcxt, galah. though I think there was a quote where some Men gave it on the monthly "anniversay" of taking the girl, as a reminder of her status.


   Dak   20:25:27 pm CDT

interesting, I will look for that in thr books I will be reading fighting slave soon


  galah{RA}   20:26:15 pm CDT

well, gal will never forget the time she went to a gor site, not this one, where a half a dozen slaves was sitting around chatting and drinking slave wine heheheheheheheheee



Loki   20:26:55 pm CDT

Hmm, I see shadow, the documentation I was referring to was it was put on the boards, and each girl had to sign out their vile, which had there name, and r/p taking it. all GS and personally owned girls. Just slave class isnt going to cover all the girls.


   {Ulrich's}shadow GS~fg   20:27:00 pm CDT

don't ever recall it given out monthly and shadows been here 8 years? Believe that it was done more as a ceremony or the pleasure of a Master watching girls swallow? shadow recalls reading that the reality was slave wine lasted forever...


Lady Lita 20:27:18 pm CDT

*chuckles at galah's remark* Oh Priest Kings!


  galah{RA}   20:28:33 pm CDT

gal remembers that also Master Loki, and she also remembers when Mistress Deidre was giving it out every month too, she would catch each girl as they came in and make sure they took it


Ulrich's}shadow GS~fg   20:29:36 pm CDT

don't know Master Loki, can recall once long ago it posted a time or two to the corks but no real consistency.


Jake   20:29:37 pm CDT

I recall it was a yearly event in some cases...


  aurora{Ulrich}~t   20:29:49 pm CDT was done that way

but many times also given out at slave class


  Loki   20:30:44 pm CDT

Aye shadow, this was hmmm like 3 years ago~chuckle~

perhaps you might want to see if any girls didnt take there slave wine.


 aurora{Ulrich}~t   20:30:53 pm CDT

Master Shadowglade believed girls should take it monthly *lol*

Its effect is indefinite, but it is normally renewed annually, primarily for symbolic purposes. I could not believe how bitter it was. I had learned from Susan, whom I had once questioned on the matter, the object.


Lady Lita 20:31:13 pm CDT

*Seeing a Free Man She does not know, Lita smiles through Her veils*


  galah{RA}   20:31:30 pm CDT

both ways made for some fun RP


  Jake   20:31:35 pm CDT

"The two females," I told him, "have recently been free. Accordingly, as soon as they have been collared, force them to drink slave wine."

"Yes, Captain," grinned Tab.

Slave wine is bitter, intentionally so. Its effect lasts for more than a Gorean month. I did not wish the females to conceive. A female slave is taken off slave wine only when it is her master's intention to breed her.

Marauders of Gor Book 9 Page 23


The effect of the slave wine endures several cycles, or moons; it may be counteracted by another drink, a smooth, sweet beverage, which frees the girl's body for the act of the male slave, or, in unusual cases, should she be freed, to the act of the lover; slave girls, incidentally, are almost never freed on Gor; they are too delicious and desirable to free; only a fool, it is commonly said, would free one.

Slave Girl of Gor Book 11 Page 70


natira{GS}  20:32:15 pm CDT

has a very hard time not spitting the nasty stuff out, let alone not throw it up...hehe not sure if she made that class ~laughs~


  {Ulrich's}shadow GS~fg   20:33:00 pm CDT

yes Master Loki, shadow will get a list together..


 Lady Lita  20:33:48 pm CDT

Ithink there was also a quote about the Caste of Physicians improving it sufficiently that it lasted, as was said, a yar or more, or even indefinitely. Obviously, over the years, improvements wold have been made, One would think. Physicians bing one of the few Castes allowed to research and to have technology.


  Loki   20:33:50 pm CDT

~grins at shadow~ aye

see there's one right there~points to natira and grins~


  {Ulrich's}shadow GS~fg   20:34:22 pm CDT

Its effect is indefinite, but it is normally renewed annually, primarily for symbolic purposes. I could not believe how bitter it was. I had learned from Susan, whom I ad once questioned on the matter, the object.

It is prepared from a derivative of sip root. The formula, too, I had learned, at the insistence of masters and slavers, had been improved by the caste of physicians within the last few years. It was now, for most practical purposes, universally effective. Too, as Drusus Rencius bad mentioned, its effects, at least for most practical purposes, lasted indefinitely.

---Kajira of Gor, p 130

Though there are also quotes that state Slave Wine being given monthly, 2 times a year.. so no real consistency


  {Ulrich's}shadow GS~fg   20:35:27 pm CDT

*winks at natira*

shadow put your name on the list first


  galah{RA}   20:35:54 pm CDT

ever noticed there is little talk of gor babies in the books?


natira{GS}  20:36:06 pm CDT

awww umm but but mistress ~mumbles to herself about keeping her mouth shut next time~


  Loki   20:36:41 pm CDT

anything else worthy of discussion? If not Ill we'll close this forum.


  aurora{Ulrich}~t   20:36:48 pm CDT

ut oh...that means natira probably gets a double dose



   Jake   20:37:03 pm CDT

lots of talk of bred pleasure slaves or passion slaves..I digress...seems they liked the acquisitoning of slaves...Men hunting..a novel idea


Lady Lita  20:37:35 pm CDT

yes, I have noticed that, galah. Though there are some mentions of them. Kind of asides, as it were. Being present at festivals and children running through crowds and so on. And wasn't Fish just a boy when first introduced in the books?


  galah{RA}   20:37:44 pm CDT

might make for something different if some Free Woman came around with her baby, so us slaves could be in awe of it, and ask such foolish things about where the baby came from and such hehehehehee


  Dak   20:37:57 pm CDT

it would seem babies were prety much kept out of site as were most Free Women


natira{GS}  20:37:58 pm CDT

hushhhh aurora ~makes a face getting pale just thinking about that


 Lady Lita  20:38:46 pm CDT

*chokes with laughter beneath Her veils, hoping if that happens She is not present to have to explain!*


  galah{RA}   20:38:46 pm CDT

**hint hint nudge nudge to Mistress Lita** heheheeeee


   Jake   20:38:57 pm CDT

steps over to grab the slave in need of her drink...bring it on girls..she is not going anywhere now as a thick calloused hand reaches and takes hold of her errant locks


  Loki   20:38:58 pm CDT

Im pretty sure r/ping with a child is forbidden here, if I remember Rollo'ss decree a while back


   Jake   20:39:50 pm CDT

yes as the site rules say you must be of age to be here playing a child could "look" bad


  galah{RA}   20:39:59 pm CDT

guess you wouldn't be bringing baby to a tavern, but perhaps the Piazza or Port Kar room? years and years ago, gal remembers a preggie slave coming in though heheheheee


  aurora{Ulrich}~t   20:40:03 pm CDT

..but that not banned from poolside/GS rules

role play with children?


Lady Lita  20:40:17 pm CDT

You know, Dak, the books keep saying Free Women were pretty much kept out of sight, but almost every scene in the book portraying a City or town or group of people, the Free Women were very much a presence, even sometimes an obnoxious one!


  aurora{Ulrich}~t   20:40:40 pm CDT

remember silkenpleasure?


  Loki   20:40:43 pm CDT

aye Jake, and I think Rollo's ruling on this is in the council ruling notes.


 shaina {KR}   20:40:57 pm CDT

it was made a rule a couple of years ago.. it was a topic for Forum maybe once or twice...


   {Ulrich's}shadow GS~fg   20:41:28 pm CDT

yes is actually in the rules, no children, shadow too lazy to go dig it up tho..


 galah{RA}   20:41:30 pm CDT

ooooohh, but gal was only referring to a babe in arms, not a child running amok, but then gal guesses that they don't stay babies forever hehehehehee


  Loki   20:41:33 pm CDT

aye aurora, I remember that girl

galah, no babies in any of the rooms are allowed as far as I know


Lady Lita 20:41:53 pm CDT

Whew! Thank the Priest Kings!


  aurora{Ulrich}~t   20:42:32 pm CDT

lol...aurora thinks thats all silkenpleasure did was hold a baby and it became a drama nightmare


  shaina {KR}   20:42:32 pm CDT

Gary felt better about there being no role play involving children of any sort.... just to be on the safe side..


  galah{RA}   20:42:41 pm CDT

just a RP baby, not someone coming in and being a an NPC baby hehehehehe


  Loki   20:43:22 pm CDT

I wouldnt do it~firm nod~ or face the consequences


Lady Lita  20:43:54 pm CDT

*mumbles* Busy Physician has enough to do stitching up foolish Men Who can't stay out of the way of Each Others' swords, without having to deal with colic, diaper rash, and all that stuff!


  galah{RA}   20:44:08 pm CDT

okay, no babies, but it might have been a nice way for a FW and the girls to interact together **shrugs** gal remembers aurora, that is who it was that had a baby heheheheeeee and it did cause problems galore


  {Ulrich's}shadow GS~fg   20:45:00 pm CDT

thats what silken did, a rp baby, and a few here went nuts.. drama ..but often times it is the 'who' and not the actual act that some get bent out of shape over


  aurora{Ulrich}~t   20:45:09 pm CDT

lol Lady Lita


   Jake   20:45:15 pm CDT

damn!!! puts away His pacifier...whom-ever nipple this was..thanks


  {Ulrich's}shadow GS~fg   20:45:53 pm CDT

*gigling at Master Jake*


   Dak   20:46:02 pm CDT

I do believe I remember in Assassins that when a slave had a child it was given to Free Women to raise as Scormus was


 natira{GS}  20:46:52 pm CDT

~coughs and looks wide eyed at Master Jake and laughs~


Lady Lita  20:47:09 pm CDT

*choking with laughter beneath Her veils once more* Jke, You will be th death of Me! And it would be most unseemly and undignified to have all the message boards all over Port Kar saying the Lady Physician died of lauging!


  Loki   20:47:28 pm CDT

alright, Ill call this forum to a close. Thank you all for coming, and thank you snowrose for scribing.....


   Jake   20:48:42 pm CDT

well then I do have something to strive after as I have no need for the Green of Gor..they tend to pry and prod and not in ways I seek as fun...then grins...if wounded..a hot iron works need for a Doctor when I can do it Myself


 Lady Lita  20:50:06 pm CDT

Awww, Jake, surely You would not deprive a poor FreeWoman of the pleasure of scorching Your.....ermm...well.... never mind! *doleful sigh*

 Jake   20:53:03 pm CDT

I'd deny a FW many things..first of all being her freedom if she dared try scorching anything of Mine including black wine


   Dak   20:53:46 pm CDT

aye Jake, I think for the most part Goreans pretty much took care of most of their own problems, Unlike our present day society, or the way it was 60 years ago even , *shrugs*


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